A serious topic and graphic discussion

[rhienelleth]

You've been warned.  I do not pull punches under the cut.  I am appalled and enraged by this trend, and I talk about it frankly, without mincing words. 

ETA: A clarification.  It has been pointed out to me that there are rape fics out there that deal with the experience in a realistic way, not depicting the rape erotically, but as the vile act it is.  Some of the authors of such fic are writing from their own experience, and thus writing the fic, and particularly the aftermath of the rape, is cathartic for them.  In that case, I would say classifying the fic as 'rape fic' is correct, and I am certainly not addressing those fics with this post.  My post addresses the other  sort of rape fic one sees, that does not address the crime in a realistic manner.

A disturbing trend has recently been brought to my attention in fanfic, specifically in slash SGA fanfic, though I have no doubt this exists in every fandom/genre across the board. I have personally seen it in het fic of various fandoms. Non-consensual, or rape fic appears to be increasingly popular. I find this deeply disturbing on many levels, not the least of which is that much of this fic is being written by women, and read by women, some of them very young. Now, it’s quite probable that a percentage of these fics are being mislabeled by the authors. Allow me to explain.

Rape is not about sex. You’ve heard it before, but maybe haven’t given too close of an examination to the phrase. After all, how can it not be about sex when the act is sexual in nature? Ok, fair enough. But consider this: one of the common types of serial killer is called the “lust killer” or sexual killer, even though the kill itself might have nothing about it which we would identify as sexual in nature. No rape or sexual molestation, but instead, mutilation, torture, etc. This is because the killer gets his sexual gratification from the act of the kill itself, rather from anything we identify as sexual.

Rapists bear some similarity. They are not raping so much for the sexual act itself, but for the feeling of empowerment it gives them. The control and domination they feel they are gaining. Why does this need for control and power manifest in a sexual deviance? I am no trained psychologist, so I can only conjecture from things I’ve read over the years, and my own extrapolations from there. One, they are probably getting a sexual gratification out of the act, but because of the dominant position of control the act of rape places them in. You might think a consensual sexual act in which the rapist is ‘dominant’ would achieve the same affect – it would not. Forcing themselves on their victim is an integral part of their need. Two, sexual intercourse is the most basic way men have dominated women since time immemorial. Sure, there are dominant women, and men who enjoy being submissive, but the nature of the act itself precludes all of that. A man is invading a woman’s body when they have intercourse, there is nothing that can change that simple fact. Whatever the position, whatever roleplay has led up to the act itself, there is a very basic level of empowerment a man will feel when he engages in intercourse, period, whether he’s the one on top or not.

This applies to same sex partners as well – whomever is performing the penetration is the dominant partner. If the rape victim is male, it is the act of penetration, whether with penis or foreign object, that gives the rapist that “control” they are looking for. This is why chemical castration is so very limited in it’s effectiveness. The vast majority of rapists will continue to rape, but they will use a broom handle, or a beer bottle, or whatever else they can lay hands to, to perform the penetration.

Seduction, even ‘forced’ seduction, is something different. It’s also a common turn on among women. Probably going back to our deeply ingrained societal indoctrination that sexual pleasure is something to be ashamed of (which, thankfully, is getting less and less as society moves forward, but unfortunately still exists deep in our psyches.) Therefore, “sexual pleasure in spite of ourselves” is something a lot of women find arousing. So is the kind of bondage fic where one partner is helpless while the other er, "has their way with them".  BUT, the big question here is, is it consensual?  Are there safety measures in place to ensure that all parties are comfortable (or as uncomfortable as they are comfortable with) throughout the experience?  This is not the same thing as rape!

**Also, allow me to clarify that for the purposes of this particular discussion, we are assuming that both parties are of adult age and not blood related. Incest/rape is its own discussion, with it’s own psychosis for the parties involved, and I’m not going into it here.**

Definitions:

Seduce: to win over; attract; entice; to persuade or induce to have sexual intercourse.

Rape: an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation; the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

See the difference? In ‘forced’ seduction, the woman – or man – is initially not interested in having sexual relations with the person in question, who we will from here on out refer to as the seducer. The seducer uses temptation and pleasure to chip away at this resolve, enticing them into eventually consenting to intercourse. A rapist does not care if you consent, in fact, the experience would likely be lessened for them if you did consent. 

 

NOTE: In the really real world, forced seduction would cross the line.  In fact, I don’t know if it’s even possible, okay?  Once someone places boundaries, pushing past those boundaries without their consent is tantamount to rape.  We’re talking about forced seduction as depicted in fiction, where the character gives their consent to the sexual act because they decide they want to have intercourse.  Maybe they didn’t when the scene began, but before slot B is inserted into tab A, they change their mind.  We’ve seen it in romance novels time and time again, and this is entirely different from the situation where the character never gives their consent, but is forced into the act anyway.

As an example of forced seduction, a vast majority of Sarkney stories in the Alias fandom have this particular kink. Why? Because Sydney and Sark are enemies in canon. It’s a natural progression for one of them to be seduced by the other “against their will”. I’ve read quite a few of these fics, and of those, all the ones I can think of have the character being seduced consenting to intercourse long before they get to the act itself. Usually somewhere in the midst of foreplay their resolve not to be moved gives way to consent. In these, the first orgasm most often takes place before intercourse. These are not rape fics, and should not be labeled as such.  (It should be noted here that experiencing pleasure without consent does not, in fact, equal consent.  In real life, a rape victim – especially men, I would think – might experience arousal or pleasure during the act.  That doesn’t mean they weren’t raped.  In fact, that only increases the shame they feel.)
 
Rape fics often have the victim raped - graphically - by an enemy - for instance, Lee Adama might be raped by Leoben the cylon.  Afterward, Helo helps the shattered Lee overcome the deep psychological scars this left behind.  Ok, I might not have as much of a problem with this premise if 1) the rape wasn't so obviously put there as an erotic kink.  How is this erotic, people?  Worst of all are the fics where the victim is traumatized most by the fact that they enjoyed their rape, but wants to recreate it with someone else.  This is so wrong, I truly have no words.  Lee turns to Helo to recreate the sexual situation he secretly enjoyed.  Um, people do not "secretly enjoy" being raped.  If you believe this, go back to the beginning of this post and re-read.  Ask yourself, as an author, an important question.  During the 'rape', did Lee at any time give his consent to the act?  This could be as overt as him gasping "Yes, frak me Leoben!" during a moment of unrestrained passion after paragraphs of restraint, to something as subtle as him moaning in pleasure and saying "Yes, oh Gods, oh Gods..." while Leoben is deep throating him.  If your answer is yes, than you have mislabeled your fic!  It is not rape if Lee consents before there is intercourse, it is forced seduction, or simply seduction.  If, on the other hand, the answer is no, then it is rape fic and why is this erotic to you?  Why is Lee's pain and humiliation a turn on?

I teach a women’s self-defense class. I’m going to bring a few of the statistics and things I tell those women into this discussion, just for a bit more of a reality check for anyone who may still be unclear on the difference between the two types of fic talked about above.

I tell the women in my class that rape is a life and death situation, and they need to view it as such. This is why:

75% of women who are raped need medical attention after, and something like 80% of the women who are assaulted or raped by a stranger (meaning not an acquaintance, friend, relative, etc) end in death. (To put this in perspective, 77% of women who are raped are victimized by someone they know, so the 80% statistic above refers to the other 22% of total victims.) But that means that if you are in a confrontation with a stranger, he is 80% likely to kill you either during or after the act. Those are not good odds, ladies.

I tell the women in my class that if they are assaulted by a stranger, they must assume that person is going to kill them. They cannot go along with the rape hoping it is "all" that is going to happen. Remember that 75% of all victims will need serious medical attention after the act, regardless of stranger rape or acquaintance. That doesn't even touch on the possibility of HIV, or other STDs they may contract from the experience. This is a deadly assault, period, and I teach women to fight for their lives, and use deadly force if they have to. Even if they survive the attack, they will have severe psychological scars that will forever change them, and effect all their loved ones.

The fact that authors of fic are taking this deadly and vile act and incorporating it into fic as a sexual kink horrifies me. There are already enough misconceptions about rape out their, fandom does not need to perpetuate more. Please, if you are writing a forced seduction fic, label it properly. Do not use the word rape. And if you are writing actual rape fic, I have to wonder why. Clearly, you don’t understand the terrible damage this act leaves its victims forever scarred by. You don’t know how it stays with them for every day of the rest of their lives, how the memory haunts them, how it effects their ability to engage in healthy sexual relationships with a loving partner, how it can creep up and debilitate them in an everyday situation.

I’m not going to bring up personal experience, or talk about the women who have cried in my class as they’ve told me things they’ve never told anyone, or the physical scars some women bear who have been raped and lived to have to deal with it.  I will tell you that most stranger rapists arm themselves with knives, both to threaten you, and because it's easier to cut your clothes off while holding you down, than it is to undo the various fastenings.  And remember, rape is about the violation, the penetration - it is not unsual for rapists to cut their victims.  Some will even use the knife as the object of penetration.

Take a moment, if you will, to imagine yourself as the victim.  We'll go with a pretty generic stranger rape.  Some guy, probably bigger and stronger than you, grabs you roughly.  It hurts, and pinches, and is likely to leave bruises.  He has a knife, and believe me, when someone waves a naked blade in your face, all you can think about is that blade cutting you.  And a knife cutting you means you could die.  It's a whole new level of terror.  He shoves you to the ground - maybe you get scraped up a bit, if it's asphalt, and maybe you don't, if it's a bed or carpet.    Either way, he is stronger than you.  He holds you down with one hand, probably close to your throat so you're having trouble breathing, and uses his size to pin you down.  You are helpless.  You can feel the knife blade on your skin when he cuts your clothes, maybe it stings because it cuts you up a little, too.  So now you are being overpowered, and have the added humiliation of being mostly naked in front of a stranger.  He may even call you names, or make disparaging remarks.  You are not sexually aroused, and he doesn't give a shit about things like lubrication or condoms.  It's painful when he forces himself inside you, and you have no idea if he might be giving you HIV.  If you are very lucky, it will be over quickly and he will leave without doing anymore damage to you.  If not...it only gets worse. 

If it ends with you relatively unscathed, you will have only bruises, and perhaps some vaginal tearing.  Reality sets in.  How can you possibly go to the hospital and tell anyone what's happened?  To have people ask why you didn't try to get away, to have them poke and prod you with an exam, to have your husband/loved ones find out.  But you might have an STD and not know it, or worse.  Every victim weighs these things after a rape, which is why less than half are ever reported. 

Rape is a violent crime that destroys people, destroys lives. I don't understand how anyone could take anything remotely similar to the above situation, and use it as turn on in fic.  The very idea disgusts me, and makes me outraged on behalf of any woman who has ever been raped.  Do not lessen the truth of that for the sake of titillating the masses, please.

Comments

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Thank you. This is a post that I want those writers and the ones salivating after rape-fic to read and think about. Thank you for expressing yourself much better than I did in my rage-filled post this afternoon.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

I added a clarifying paragraph on the type of fic that particualrly offends right before where I bring my women's class in to the discussion, cause I felt I was still missing some of the point.

And feel free to link this wherever you think people should see it and read it. I am not afraid of offending people.

[sarkastic.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for writing this. It's everything I've tried to say about rape fic, but about 100 times more articulate. I think any person who's ever read or written rape fic and enjoyed it (and even those who have no opinion on it) should read this post.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. :) I hope people can read it objectively, and take what I'm saying for what it is. I know I'm opening up a can of worms by posting it, but...I felt it needed saying.

[littledrop.livejournal.com]

I am a random person. Hello! I was just crusing by on friendsfriends and saw your post and read it, because this is a subject that interests me. I wanted to respond to these words in particular:

And if you are writing actual rape fic, I have to wonder why. Clearly, you don’t understand the terrible damage this act leaves its victims forever scarred by.

I think you're assuming that rape is always written as a sexual kink. I would estimate that 80% of the rape-writing female fans that I know have been raped themselves. I'm not naming names, obviously, but this is a phenomenon I've observed for a number of years. Writing rape is often a form of therapy for these women, a form of catharsis they don't get to have in "real life", for whatever reason. One of my friends once told me, "When I write rape and the aftermath of rape, I get to make right all the things that went wrong for me." (That's my emphasis, because I think that's another thing your post doesn't take into accound - the fact that so many of these stories are focused more upon the aftermath than the rape itself.)

So, yes. Interesting post, and I understand where you're coming from (particularly when it comes to dubious consent and incorrect labels), but the motivations for writing rape fic are often more complex than "rape is hot omg". Undoubtedly, some women do write rape for that reason (and I'm not going to get into that issue - staying well clear!) - but the vast majority of the female rape writers that I know have reasons that go beyond that, and I hate to see them disparaged in this way. It's not always as simple as you might think.

YMMV, of course.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I haven't come across any of these fics. I understand that POV, and I'll edit the above post to exclude that sort of thing.

I am guessing, having not read this sort of rape fic, that the women writing it do not romanticize the act. The victim doesn't "secretly enjoy" being raped, and the "comfort" part of the aftermath does not then emulate the earlier rape scene. These are the sorts of fics I am particularly addressing. I am certainly not addressing any fics that deal with rape in a realistic or non-erotic way.

Indeed.

[kistha.livejournal.com]

I briefly touched on this (in of all things a music meme here: http://kistha.livejournal.com/52354.html ) and I didn't do nearly enough.

*applause* You've done an excellent job, even if the bottom scenario is incredibly kind.

More people need to speak out about the many differences in Rape, Incest/Rape, Date Rape, and indecisive sex. Not to mention the fact that it isn't just a female plague, and if you think few females are willing to report it, males are 100 times less likely to admit it *period* much less report it. We need to stop blurring the line between coercion and force, and put the light on the fact that it's not about sex, it's about power.

Re: Indeed.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

Thank-you.

You've done an excellent job, even if the bottom scenario is incredibly kind.

I did that deliberately, not wanting anyone to think I was "just using a worst-case scenario" to make my case. In reality, that's pretty much the best case scenario.

More people need to speak out about the many differences in Rape, Incest/Rape, Date Rape, and indecisive sex. Not to mention the fact that it isn't just a female plague, and if you think few females are willing to report it, males are 100 times less likely to admit it *period* much less report it. We need to stop blurring the line between coercion and force, and put the light on the fact that it's not about sex, it's about power.

God, yes. The problem is, there are so many different types of rape, it's what's made defining it so difficult for our legal system. But yes, it all boils down to that one line: It's not about sex, it's about power.

[angelhunter.livejournal.com]

Thank you for giving words to all that rage I feel whenever I read that kind of *squee*-comments about a rape-fic. I don't know how bad that phenomenon is in SGA fandom, but it is very virulent in anime fandom and it pisses me off a great deal.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

The "squee" comments only make everything worse - in fact, many of them are far worse thasn the fic itself. I have read actual "rape" fic that deals with the subject realistically and doesn't appear to be written for any kind of eroticism, yet it has comments which make it clear the readers are reading it for just that purpose.

prevalence of rape

[mallory-blog.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to make a brief comment that the processing of nonconsensual sex and/or rape isn't singular but goes through many stages. The 'heavy lifting' stage tends to be the graphic rape as RAPE type of depictions. The 'light lifting' stages often show up in rape fantasies of all descriptions. Often rapes occur when a child is quite young and their experience isn't an adult experience and may not even be a recognizable rape experience based on accessible memories - generally one of the prevailing emotions is confusion - all of these contribute to 'playing out' rape in all kinds of formats to work through thoughts and issues around power differentials and body boundary issues.

No two humans process the same way or have the same tools so the broad spectrum of rape depictions have a continuing general value or they would cease to exist.

Re: prevalence of rape

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

You make an excellent point.

I have no problem with people writing rape fic to work through some things. I do have a problem with the blurred line fandom has between rape and forced seduction as classifications, and the seemingly endless readers who don't differentiate between the two.

I'm probably going to get a lot of crap for this, but oh well...

[risha]

I found a link to this post via sga_newsletter, and I have to tell you that I actually found it sort of offensive.

I completely understand why you, personally, hate rape fiction. I haven't read whatever story set you off today, so maybe it was particularly grotesque example. But I dislike being effectively called a pervert for enjoying something fictional in privacy of my mind. There's nothing inherently wrong with any fantasy as long as all parties involved understand the difference between reality and fantasy. I NEVER want to be raped in real life, and I often find realistically written rape fiction too difficult to finish. And no, I'm neither a rape and/or abuse survivor, nor someone into BDSM in real life. But I refuse to feel guilty for getting off on the fantasy.

http://www.answers.com/topic/rape-fantasy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_fantasy
http://www.deviantdesires.com/askme/rape.html
http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0549,bussel,70670,24.html
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=rape%20fantasy

Re: I'm probably going to get a lot of crap for this, but oh well...

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

I'm sincerely sorry if my post offended you in any way; it certainly wasn't my intention to call anyone a pervert for enjoying whatever fantasies they enjoy, but simply to define clearly the difference between rape and forced seduction, and to clarify some real life facts for the many readers out there who leave comments on rape fic that makes it quite clear they don't understand the difference between fantasy and reality. And, since you mention it, BDSM fic is also not the same as rape fic, or shouldn't be. BDSM is consensual sex, not rape.

[lim.livejournal.com]

Hello. I think you've got some interesting ideas (and some very important information!) here, but I personally think you're making some sloppy assumptions about (a) rape fic writer's motivations (b) the difference between sexual fantasy and reality and (c) fandom's knowledge of rape.

Fandom is made up largely of women. I think it's unlikely that any large body of women will not carry the heavy knowledge of rape. Some time ago on LJ, in '04, there was an awareness meme (http://radgeek.com/gt/2004/08/16/no_pity), where women posted a single line, "no pity. no shame. no silence." if they were a survivor of sexual abuse. Many fans talked about their individual experiences and many also talked about their fear of rape. So when you talk about "the truth" and "the masses" it is important to remember that rape is a truth that belongs to the masses here in fandom. Speaking about rape, actual and the fear of, is not something I will ever support the suppression of. Even if what is said is something I find unsettling, or distasteful, or just plain wrong wrong wrong! It's important to me to keep us talking. So here I am, talking with you, even though I do really disagree with your point of view. And here's why:

Something that I find astonishing and wonderful in fandom is its open celebration of sex. This might seem blase to you, but I do not come from a culture where people casually talk about their kinks, where people share their fantasies with glee, where women are sexual beings without being... preyed upon, I guess. I don't live in Afghanistan, I live in England, but still: I've never encountered anywhere like fandom. It's amazing. One of the particular things I love about fandom is the freedom women seem to feel in exploring and sharing the twisty turns of their complex sexualities with people who get stories, who inhabit them and yet also understand that sexual fantasy is just like any other kind of fantasy. It's not real. Just as reading a murder mystery does not make me a dangerous psychopath, reading a rapefic does not make me a rapist, or a rape apologist. I think we can all make that distinction, yes? And those that cannot may need more help than a polemical LJ post can offer! :)

Of course, bad writing is bad writing, and any thing or event thrown in to ramp up teh angst and without consideration for itself as an important and complicated issue will tend to the ridiculous and unbelievable. But I don't think this is confined to rapefic. I think that's just bad writing, which will happen in fandom as it does anywhere, and as fandom has no entrance exam (thank goodness! I would never have passed *g*).

As it happens, I don't read rapefics, or murder mysteries, so it's hard for me to address particulars with which I am unfamiliar, but in general, my feeling is this: rape is something that is present in women's reality. If they want to write about it, fantasise about, reshape it, control the narrative of it if they cannot control the actuality of it, explore it, understand it, get off on the idea of it... well. Who am I to say they cannot? Where else can these stories be told? Where else can these narratives happen?

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

Thank-you for your comments. Really. This is exactly the sort of discussion this topic should generate.

I don't believe I'm making sloppy generalizations. I'm not generalizing rape or rape fic. I'm addressing one specific kind of both. I'm not generalizing the women who write it - I state quite clearly at the beginning of my post that there are motivations and reasons for writing actual rape fic that I am not addressing here. I am, in fact, trying to clarify the difference between rape fic and not rape fic that is labeled as rape fic.

I also realize fandom is made up mostly of women, but that fact does not reassure me that simply because they are a large body of women, they understand and are aware of the facts of rape. Why? Because I teach a self-defense class every month with groups of women, some of whom have been raped, some of whom have been the victims of incest, and some of whom who have, thankfully, never experienced either. And most of those women are largely ignorant of the facts I talked about in my post until we talk about them in my class. I find it hard to believe that any other assortment of women would be different, especially in a group where I have read stories that romanticize or mislabel rape. In a group where readers comment on actual rape fic with things like: "This was so hot. And they say rape victims don't ask for it - yeah right. *giggle*" I am not making this up. A young woman made a comment very similar to this, and that is only one among many.

My post was intended to educate and clarify, not offend or generalize or persecute. I didn't write it because I "hate" rape fic, and I understand that victims might find it therapuetic to write about their experience. But I think about the women I know who have been raped and are still battling that experience, and then read ignorant comments like the one I paraphrase above, or read rape fic in which the victim secretly enjoys the rape, and I feel it necessary that people be made aware of the realities. Yes, fandom is a healthy fantasy life, and very sexually open. There is fic out there for every proclivity imaginable, and that's a wonderful thing. But I'm not convinced that everyone understands the facts, the realities, or the difference between rape and not-rape. BDSM is not rape. Some people like pain in their sex, and even more like a little bondage. Forced seduction is not rape. I wrote this post in an attempt to inform and educate on the difference.

[neth-dugan.livejournal.com]

*claps*

I don't like actual rape fics, I'm not a big fan. They can be, as has been mentioned, cathartic for the writters. Sometimes if you're in a really dark place in your head it's something to read as a... I don't know what. But generally, not a big fan, and I've always hated how some people write rape as some kind of kink, as if the victim secritly enjoyed it. The mere idea of that... I've always hated.


That said, when I was, I don't know, about 14 or so this SG1 fic idea poped into my head. The team got telepathically bonded and later on Sam was raped and... I don't even know why. Around that time, not too long earlier a girl near where I lived was raped, near a path I walked down often and maybe it was just me as a kid dealing with the 'what if it was me?' thing. I don't know. But I got a few chapters in and I just... it hit me. I have no idea what it's like to be raped, I can try and imagine the fear and the terror, what it does to you and the scars it leaves and the 'what if I some how enticed them?' aspect and all the... confusion that goes on. But, I can't. I can't now so I certainly couldn't then, no matter how above my actual age I was mentally. So I promptly deleted all evidence of it, and don't mention it often.


But even then I didn't do the 'maybe she secretly enjoyed it' thing. And, actually the thought of how women deal with having a child from a man who'd raped them dealt with it. Many have abortions, I'd imagine, some wouldn't for various reasons. And...

Then there's the people who think it's impossible to rape a man. That's complete and utter bull shit, even if the law hasn't caught up with that yet.



But yes. Actual rape fic, though not a fan I don't object to unless it's portraid as some kind of kink rather than the deep, deep, violent abuse that it is. I think maybe some people write them or read them out of a kind of 'what if it happened to me?' kind of thing, dealing with the fear of it happening that I think all women have. And for those who've been a victim to it, it's a kind of therapy.


But it's a hard subject, and needs to be seen and treated carefully and respectfully, not... not turned into an incentive for later romance.

[neth-dugan.livejournal.com]

I should probably clarify there, I wasn't too coherent.


I don't really object to properly done rape fics, but I'm still not a big fan of them. I like a good angst or H/C fic as much as the rest of them but rape? It's.... not really well put into words.

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

Passed here by way of voleuse - excellent post, I thought your arguments were clearly defined and extremely cogent, particularly given the subject matter.

I think it was Nancy Friday who wrote back in the day that "there's a difference between rape and Robert Redford refusing to take 'No' for an answer" - couldn't tell you the name of the book/essay today if you paid me but I believe that she was trying to explain the tropes of 'bodice rippers', where especially back in the day "forced seduction" was a common device for getting our virginal and proper heroine to give it up to our lusty pirate hero. It's more than disheartening to discover (since I don't read slash and I'm extremely skeptical of any fiction that uses rape as a device) that what, 25 years later, we have to make the same distinction to other young women. Or not so young, as the case may be...

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

Thank-you. I tried for coherence and not ranting.

Yes, I'd meant to bring that older romance novel stereotype into my post, and forgot. That is very much like some fic these days, and often the virginal heroine would use the word 'rape' for much of the book. Thankfully, the modern romance novel has moved beyond this unfortunate device.

I do like that line, about the difference between rape and Robert Redford not taking "no" for an answer. (Or would it be Brad Pitt, these days? :) Seduction and rape are very different, and consent is important.

Amen. A-men.

[ladyeclectic79.livejournal.com]

I applaud you for your forthrightness on this subject. You really did explain it beautifully, and I enjoyed reading the comments and your replies almost as much as the essay. There are very few rape fics, or non-con situations in fanfiction, that I like; indeed, various fandoms tend to have m/m rapes which "secretly awaken" the raped character's true orientation. I. Loathe. Those. Fics. As someone who has been on the receiving end of such an attack the fact that people can romantisize it, or downplay the emotions felt afterwards, really saddens me. Fantasies are one thing, but some people just go so far... Your post really did bring up some thoughts I'd been wrestling with for a long while, thoughts which I really wish I could be coherent about. While your original rant was intentioned only to discern the differences between the two sub-categories, it really should be read by many out there (especially young girls, who are often the ones writing these ridiculous stories) as clarification. *sigh* And I thought the bodice ripper had gone the way of the dodo...

Re: Amen. A-men.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

Thank-you.

various fandoms tend to have m/m rapes which "secretly awaken" the raped character's true orientation.

I'm not a regular reader of slash and wasn't aware of this tendency, or I certainly would have mentioned it as a horrid example in my post. *shudders*

My original rant was intended to differentiate between subcategories...but also to shine a light on how inappropriate certain types of rape fic are. I can believe they're being written by young girls, because only ignorance could result in some of the scenarios being perpetuated out there.

[raincitygirl.livejournal.com]

This is fascinating, and very clearly-put. Thanks for posting.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. And thank-you. :)

[forlornhope42.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this post! I once heard a woman writer (Suzanne Frank) say that she will never write about rape in her books because it is just too demeaning to the victim. I admire her no end for this, I really do. I admire you for this post.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

Thank-you. I think it's a difficult subject, no matter the media attemtping to use and/or depict it.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

Non-consensual, or rape fic appears to be increasingly popular.

*increasingly*?

That is not my impression. I believe that I have read a very high proportion of all the spell-checked well-punctuated McShep fic out there and I have noticed no such trend. Where are you getting your impression?

[cereta.livejournal.com]

See, this is what happens when Snady's rape recs page stays down a few years. People start thinking they've discovered some new thing.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

In HP fandom, I learned quickly to be very careful about certain pairings, because those pairings contained a lot of rapefic written by girls in their early teens. Why were so many 15 year olds writing, and sharing, and reading this? I don't think it was that they believe rape isn't destructive and terrible. I think it was something else. Something their culture was telling them about girls and sex, perhaps.

Now, certainly, there are people who appear not to know the difference between the fantasy and the reality. But what you can tell about someone's actual beliefs about reality from squee about a story is, honestly, negligible. (If someone made decisions about me based on the kind of story that makes me squee, I'd probably be locked up. Fortunately, cannibalistic mindraping goat-marrying serial killers only interest me in a fictional sense.)

I've often wondered why certain types of stories -- including the type you are discussing -- are so common. I think that some of them have deep underlying reasons, and there's the potential for a lot of interesting work there: why do people tell the stories they tell? Why do these patterns exist?

But I cannot see that these stories are more than a symptom: they are not in themselves problematic or evil. (They may not be well-written, but that's a whole other level of problematic and evil....)

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

You make some excellent points. Re: the judging by squeeing on a story - if it were only "squeeing", perhaps. But many of these comments make statements about rape, or rape victims, that are frankly hard to dismiss as relating only to the fic or the fantasy, and again, really made me want to post on the realities of rape. I'm not persecuting anyone here, and I hope it doesn't come across that way.

[thawrecka]

I would like to point out that it is actually quite physically possible to be aroused while being sexually assaulted, and that this in no way detracts from the horror of such an act.

[veleda-k.livejournal.com]

That is a really important point. I meant to note that myself, but it got lost in my long-windedness.

[veleda-k.livejournal.com]

I'm going to agree with an above poster and say that there is no automatic correlation between writing a rape story, even for kink's sake, and not understanding the horrors of rape.

Two things about me:

First, I consider myself at least moderately educated about rape. It is disgusting, it is revolting, it is horrendous. Our society needs to learn once and for all that rape isn't a joke.

Second, I have rape fantasies. I wish I didn't. If there was a way to "cure" me of them, I'd take it in a second. It's a constant struggle to try and understand how I can be such a passionate feminist and still have these thoughts.

One of my fandoms has canon rape. Sometimes people in the fandom imply or state outright that the character enjoyed being raped. That is a guaranteed way to get a typed ass-kicking from me. Do rape stories turn me on? Yes, no matter how much I wish otherwise. Does that mean I see rape as inherently erotic or, dear god forbid, romantic? Not in a million years.

A somewhat random aside:

A man is invading a woman’s body when they have intercourse, there is nothing that can change that simple fact.

Do you mean "according to our culture" or do you mean intrinsically. If you mean the latter, then, actually, I find that idea patriarchal in itself. Our society has taught us that vaginal-penile sex is a penis entering a vagina, when, really, we could just as easily describe it as a vagina enveloping a penis. How about this instead:

"A woman is devouring a man's body when they have intercourse, there is nothing that can change that simple fact."

Of course, society doesn't see it like that. My point is that the idea of sex being an invasion by a man is cultural, not inherent. With a lot of work, that simple fact could be changed. (Most likely not during my lifetime, but I can dream.)

[veleda-k.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom, by the way.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

Ok, allow me to clarify: a rapist arousing his victim but still forcing them into non-consensual sex is still rape. A seducer who seduces someone into consensual sex is not rape.

Seduction does not always involve candlelight and roses and soft music. It is a difficult line that a lot of people blur, and that's part of what makes this subject so difficult.

Re: here through metafandom

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

First, let me say I don't feel you're attacking me. and thank-you for making your comments.

You bring up some good points. The line here is difficult, at best, and even forced seduction might be over that line for some people. I certainly don't mean to lessen the impact of any kind of assualt.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I'm with paradox_dragon dragon here, I'm not sure if I truly get the difference between rape and forced seduction.

If somebody for example uses bondage to seduce somebody into consenting, that means, yeah, the person eventually consented to the sex, but how about the fact that they didn't consent to the bondage?

As far as I know, if somebody fondles my breasts or my genitals against my consent that still counts as sexual assault even if it doesn't involve penetration. So technically/legally one partner sexually assaults (http://www.usdoj.gov/ovw/sexassault.htm) another character in order to get them to consent to sex?

If the "yes, do me" happens in the middle of the fondling, does that means that they have consented to the earlier events after the fact? How is that different from consenting to rape after the fact in those "victim falls for rapist" stories? Or does that mean that character A is a sexual predator for the earlier sexual assault actions, even if he is scott free for the actions after the "Mmmmm, yeah!"?

What if I wrote a forcible seduction where one character for whatever reason had the character strength to not say yes (let's say out of moral or personal convictions). It is a forcible seduction in every other way, the character is turned on, the character wants to do it, but he/she can't bring himself to say the words.

What about a forceful seduction where the seducer doesn't care? Like "If you consent that's your problem, but if you hadn't I would have done it anyway".

To me the water between those is just way too muddy to make a firm "one is totally terrible, yet the other one is totally ok" distinction. It's just a confusing situation.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

You are right, it is confusing and difficult to define.

My main problem comes from fics where authors have their victims "secretly enjoy" a non-consensual, very clear cut rape, and then the outrageous comments made by readers of said fics. I also came across fics which were clearly forced or "reluctant" seduction, though not to the 'forced' degrees you mention - where the seducee capitulates to the sex after some mutual kissing/fondling, which were classified as non-con. My post was meant to draw a line between the two, though your comment makes it clear the line is even more blurry than I'd realized.

Yep, confusing and difficult is a good descriptive. I have a major problem with rape fics where the victim enjoys the rape and it is clearly written for erotic purposes. To some, that might be an unfair personal hang-up.

[lothy.livejournal.com]

I saw your post on metafandom

On a personal level, I share your opinion. I'm fine with fics that portray rape realistically - as someone mentioned, they're sometimes done by people who have been raped, or occasionally by their friends, as a type of therapy. But I deeply dislike it when rape is portrayed erotically. And my worst is when the victim suddenly finds they enjoy it after all.

However, I did a similar post on my LJ a couple of months ago where I basically asked why people like non-con. Apparently it's basically the same as "rape fantasies" - which aren't something I understand either, but are something quite a lot of people have. I read something on - Wikipedia, maybe? - which explained the psychological reasons for it. I can't actually remember them, but there you go.

Basically, IMO people who write erotic rape fantasies need to say that in the warnings - so that I can stay well away from their fics!

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Care to share a link? That discussion sounds very interesting.

Basically, IMO people who write erotic rape fantasies need to say that in the warnings - so that I can stay well away from their fics!

There kinda is the cyclical discussion about rape vs. non-con. Where people argue that rape *is* the definition of non-con vice versa and people saying that "just" non-con feels less severe to them. I have to say that I usually agree more with the people who say that it *is* the same thing, but at the same time maybe it would be useful if "rape" in a header implied typical, violent, unaplogetic, realistic rape, while "non-con" could be a sign that the author thinks it's kinda sorta rape, but for some reason less severe in their mind/making excuses for it.

[briarwood.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom

I have so many problems with this I don't know where to start.

Your distinction between "forced seduction" and rape is a straw man. "Forced consent" is another way of saying date rape and date rape is still rape. It may not involve violence or threats, but it's still bloody well rape. If at any point in the proceedings the victim says "no" it's rape. If the perpetrator knows that the victim doesn't want sex, regardless of whether the word "no" is spoken, it's rape. Implying that a non-violent rape is somehow less rape than the other demeans the many, many victims of it.

Your assertion that the act of penetration makes a partner dominant is the patriarchal view. And it's not true. Oh, it can be true, but you are asserting that there is no form of penetrative sex in which the penetratee can be dominant. Bullshit. There's a psychological condition in which certain males are terrified of the sex act, because their body is essentially being engulfed, possessed by another. Shrinks used to use it to "explain" homosexuality but it's got little to do with that. That viewpoint, which is more prevalent than you'd think, makes the penetratee dominant, regardless. Frankly, I don't believe either extreme is valid - the sex act, by its nature is a joining of equals - but my point is your *always* is nonsense.

Worst of all are the fics where the victim is traumatized most by the fact that they enjoyed their rape. This is so wrong, I truly have no words.

Most rape in slash fiction is male rape. I suggest you do some research on the subject because clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Many men experience orgasm during rape; it's a physical, biological reaction, and it's something that makes recovery a very different experience for male rape victims. Fic writers who explore this are writing realistically, and if you actually do some research you'll learn that having experienced pleasure during rape is frequently the most traumatising aspect of the experience for male victims.

Lastly, you are more than welcome to stay well away from rape fics. Why not, if it's not your kink. But please don't demonise women for rape fantasies without making the slightest effort to understand them. It's not evil, it's not wrong, it's not a perpetuation of rape culture. It's an aspect of female sexuality and frankly, we have the right to explore it. Our way.

[rhienelleth.livejournal.com]

Most rape in slash fiction is male rape. I suggest you do some research on the subject because clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Many men experience orgasm during rape; it's a physical, biological reaction, and it's something that makes recovery a very different experience for male rape victims. Fic writers who explore this are writing realistically, and if you actually do some research you'll learn that having experienced pleasure during rape is frequently the most traumatising aspect of the experience for male victims.

I am well aware of the involuntary biological response men have, and the fact that it makes rape almost worse for them than it does for women. You quoted me out of context by ignoring the supporting example to my statment. I very much doubt that a man who is raped, and involuntarily ejaculates because he can't control his body's reponse to sexual stimulation, then goes to other men to recreate his victimization and basically realizes he's gay as a result of the crime, which is specifically the sort of fic I was referring to with my Lee/Leoben/Helo example. Either I didn't make that clear, for which I apologize, or you believe this really does happen and I am ignorant of it, in which case, I must admit I am ignorant.

I'm sorry, I don't feel I demonized anyone in my post. I apologize if I offended you. My intent was to educate people on the realities of rape, and the disservice certain fics do the crime and the victims. I am not calling all rape-fic evil incarnate, nor am I persecuting anyone. If at certain points in my essay, I allowed personal feeling to color my words, I'm only human. You are right; I choose to stay away from rape fic. Unfortunately, just as you stumbled across my essay and it offended you, I have stumbled across rape fic which offended me. I spend time with too many rape victims to undertsand the eroticism a realistically depicted rape could possibly have, and I suppose that's my hang-up. I'm not asking you to agree.

this might be retarded, as i am taking time out of a "busy" sg-1 marathon to comment here.

[kickthebeat.livejournal.com]

I haven't read any of the above comments, really, other than seeing "rape fantasy" and "forced seduction" thrown around here and there, so I'm sorry but my reaction to your post is strictly based on the 'what is up with the prevalence of rape in sga slash fic' question I saw in your post itself. if someone mentioned this in the comments above mine, well then. mea culpa.

this is quite possibly just me, but I've always felt women -- and I specify women here because a) women make up the majority of sga fandom on the internets, like it or not and b) you specifically mentioned fic written and/or read by women in your post -- write rapefic, or gravitate towards rape as a violent act perpetuated upon one or more of their characters, because as women, we tend to think of rape as being one of the most horrible things to happen to us. and that's true, I would never dream of saying anything to the contrary; I'm a woman, and the possibility of being raped is terrifying to me. but that's the thing: we're women. we know rape. we know what happens to the body when it's raped; we know what happens to a psyche after going through such an ordeal. if we don't know about it intimately, and many of us do, it's not like there's a derth of information out there that wouldn't tell us what it's like, or how it can happen, or what the aftermath would be like. we can imagine it happening to us, we could imagine it happening to others so realistically, it doesn't take much to broaden that view beyond women, to men. to men in the Pegasus Galaxy, even.

I'm not a fan of the hurt/comfort fic in general, but I can see why people would use rape, of all things, as their vehicle to get to it. if you want to break a man's spirit, to demoralize him to his very base and fuck with him like nothing else, you rape him. you were completely correct, rape, and rapefic, is always about power: who has it, who doesn't, and in h/c fic, who can ultimately give it back. can you tell me a way we, as writers, could take every scrap over power from a character 99% of us will never be like? these characters, though we love them and "identify" with them and omgggg feel their pain and shit, are experiencing things in their own fictional lives we could never fathom. I could be raped one day, but I will never know how it feels to have my life sucked out through my chest plate. how could I begin to write about that? I mean, yes, I could write it, and it might even seem awesome, but hey, writing about John Sheppard being raped, well. that might be something I could write even better, because I've experienced it, or my best friend has experienced it, or maybe my mother or my aunt or the girl I work next to every day has experienced it. it's what I know, and I write what I know.

I always ask myself why rape isn't mentioned in more fic. you put up the numbers yourself; it's not sexual coersion in any sense is an uncommon act. I mean, I don't know. it's just surprising to see anyone in fandom actually shocked by rapefic. I mean, people actually rec multi-chapter fics about bondage in quantum mirror universes where Rodney has long hair and metallic tattoos. seriously, I would think that is way more implausible than some power-hungry meglomaniac on an unexplored planet capturing a member of the team and raping them as a show of power. or, you know. just me.

Re: this might be retarded, as i am taking time out of a "busy" sg-1 marathon to comment here.

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

Word.

[alexandramuses.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much. My family has a history of incest (that, thankfully, broke with my parents), so rape vs. seduction has always been of interest to me. I'm glad to see it brought so bluntly to light.